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S1 Episode 5: The Critical Power and Impact of Primitive Reflexes on a Child's Development - Lucia speaks with Dr Josh Madsen

• The Brain Health Movement • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Welcome to "My Mighty Quinn", the show where we explore the fascinating world of child development with leading experts. I'm Lucia Silver, your host and today we have the pleasure of speaking again with Dr. Josh Madsen, a renowned expert in paediatric development.

In this insightful and final episode of this  introductory series, Dr. Josh and I delve into the crucial topic of primitive reflexes and their impact on a child's development. We explore how these foundational neurological responses can influence behaviour, learning, and overall development well-being.

We  discuss  some valuable strategies for parents to support their child's growth and unlock their full potential through addressing the primitive reflexes at home.

Key Takeaways for Parents:

  1. Understanding Reflexes: Primitive reflexes are foundational neurological responses that shape a child's early development. Recognising and addressing these reflexes can lead to significant improvements in behaviour, learning, and overall well-being.

  2. Impact on Behaviour and Learning: Reflexes can have a profound influence on a child's behaviour, including impulse control, emotional regulation, and learning abilities. By targeting the inhibition of these reflexes, parents can create a supportive environment for their child's growth.

  3. Holistic Approach to Development: The importance of a holistic approach, considering factors such as nutrition, quality of sleep, and screen time. These elements play a crucial role in optimising a child's healthy neurological development.

  4. Patience and Persistence: Progress in addressing primitive reflexes is not immediate. Patience, consistent implementation and a nurturing environment are key to fostering positive changes in a child's well-being and abilities.

  5. Empowerment through Knowledge: Equipping yourself with understanding and strategies for primitive reflex inhibition empowers you as a parent to actively contribute to your child's development journey.

We hope you found the discussions on child development informative and inspiring. If you know other parents who could benefit from this series, please consider sharing it with them. Your support helps us reach more families with this important science.


Download your FREE Guide now: “The Crucial Truths behind your Beautiful Child’s Learning, Attention, Social and Behavioural Difficulties":
https://thebrainhealthmovement.com/childs-lea

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Lucia Silver:

Welcome to the fifth and final episode of this introductory series, My Mighty Quinn, I can't tell you how much better I feel just to have been able to talk about this with you and to share and not be alone. And I'm especially happy also that I'm able to share good news. Had I been talking to you six months ago, my story would have been an altogether different one. I would have been feeling maybe what you're feeling now isolated, overwhelmed, frustrated, helpless with all the contradictory information. And of course deeply concerned for my child's future for Quinn, how is he going to manage this world? How is he going to be independent? How will he be happy and confident and have agency over his own life. And maybe this is, this is how you feel right now. And I know I needed a community. I needed trusted guidance. And I really needed a roadmap, someone who had done this successfully before to just tell me A to Zed, this is what you need to do. Keep doing it. Don't stop. You know, I needed encouragement. And somewhere I could check in every once in a while with any questions I may have. And this may also be how you feel to if it is we'd love to hear from you over in the Brain Balance movement, Facebook group. What do you need right now? How can we help talk to us? Please don't feel alone. You're not alone. There is huge support here for you. And this is clearly a huge subject. And we're just scraping the surface of the surface here in this introductory series. But to be clear, my overriding desire for you listening now are two clear outcomes. One for you to now understand the real root causes that create the symptoms you're seeing in your children. And with this to know that the brain is proven to be neuroplastic and therefore can change. And to for you to feel inspired by the explanations, revelations and transformations we share here at the Brain Balance movement. And through this introductory podcast series moved towards starting on a programme of positive transformation for your child with the exercises and lifestyle changes we can guide you to and support you with. And of course, if you're pregnant, a parent to be then together with us, you are starting the journey awakened and more educated, you will know the signs to look out for. You'll know the important timings of the milestones like crawling, walking, talking, that your child should be meeting. And if not, you will know what needs to be addressed or what to work on catching up if things are delayed. As Dr. Josh said in the previous episode, the best therapist is you the parent, and I say repeatedly information is the mothership. And it is with this information. Together with the consistent implementation. You've heard that I employed with Quinn, that you have the power to make this decision and start taking action. I've been able to see the most incredible changes in my son Quinn and you can do the same I promise you can. I've been feeling like a lone island until I met Dr. Josh Madsen, Seb Kane and others and until I started reading some of the pioneering scientists, researchers and experts in this field of child brain development. I found huge volumes of medical work to explain and support a movement based programme and more importantly, clinical evidence, hundreds of case studies of children experiencing huge improvements, and in some cases totally reversing their conditions and diagnoses. And surely this evidence is the most important of all. There are also countless case studies of inspiring before and afters. And we'll enjoy some more of these again in today's podcast with Dr. Josh. But there's definitely something in the air now. This is the time for substantive change in the way we raise our kids, when we know categorically undeniably that some of the things we're doing and not doing are having a detrimental effect on our children's development. Just last night on BBC World News, there was a whole feature on the brains neuroplasticity. With new technology, there was this little baby in a smart suit, and they were monitoring its motor development. And they were linking it directly to cognitive development, saying that the more normal is one, the more normal as the other. We're talking about the importance of healthy movement and reaching exact milestones. And if not, then this was indicative of something being delayed or array. All of which pointed to the possibility of preventing this in the first place. If we understand the importance of correct foundations, and movement, movement movement. I know that many of you are raring to get going show me how to assess my kids primitive reflexes, give me the exercises we need to do. And some of you may have lots of questions and your all at different stages along the way, we're digesting this information, you're probably observing your baby child, children, teenagers, young adults, through this lens. Now with this information, you may even be pregnant, or thinking of conceiving, and working out how to get started with this programme if this all makes sense to you. So I thought the best thing I could do in this last introductory series is encourage you to download the free guide to the crucial facts you need to know about beautiful child. So you have this as yours to keep and the link to that in the show notes. And if you haven't already, please join the Brain Balance movement, Facebook group, the links also in the show notes to that. And it's from here, that we will steer the ship forwards and create a beautiful community for support and change. But I also thought that together with Dr. Josh, we will endeavour to answer some of the loudest questions we are receiving from you in the lead up to start doing the real work with your kids. And we will also share with you some more specific real life examples of parents and kids with a variety of symptoms across learning attention, reading social and other developmental delays that have worked with these exercises and seen fantastic results. So hello again, Dr. Josh, how are you?

Dr Josh Madsen:

I am doing great. Thanks for having me.

Lucia Silver:

So how incredible to see this feature the other day on BBC Worldwide news. I'm not sure if you guys get it, but I was just sitting there completely flabbergasted. Are you seeing more features and documentaries in this area coming out in the US as well? Um,

Dr Josh Madsen:

there's, there's a lot of there's been a lot and you know, in the, the concept or the the theory or really not a theory, the concept of neuroplasticity has been around for a long time. And there's been research working on this for long periods of time from the 1940s 1950s. So it's nothing that's new. But just like anything, it's it takes time for that research to develop into a solid foundation. But now we can have that.

Lucia Silver:

Yes. And of course, to be delivered into a relevant context where parents who are receiving diagnoses and thinking well, that's that the prevalence and understanding of neuroplasticity is critical in even embarking on on a programme of change. We need to know scientifically that that is realistic,

Dr Josh Madsen:

correct? Yeah, in a lot of kids have a diagnosis. And that's where they are in that time, that period of that they got diagnosed that time. That's where they neurologically, maybe that's where they are at that time. But there's no one out there saying and research that doesn't support it in a lot of ways that that can't change. In most cases, it does change. If you have the correct direction, and you're working towards that, you can typically make some massive improvements, right? Precisely.

Lucia Silver:

So I love to start with a bit of gratitude and inspiration. It does wonders for my mindset and bringing me into the present with what is real. And now. Rather than being defined by you know, my fears, worries or triggers from the past. So perhaps we could start with some good news from the clinic this morning. I was thinking what a great tagline for something we could do regularly good news from Dr. Josh's clinic this morning. Yeah. Can you tell us can you tell us about a patient that seen some fabulous transformation this week?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We just finished up with a couple week intensive with a kid last week, which was really fun. He was nonverbal, autistic child that also had Down syndrome. So you have genetic disorder on top of that. He came in, because he was well, lots of different issues, but constantly stemming. He wasn't, you know, wasn't having any kind of communication, even nonverbal communication with people. He wasn't really aware of what was going on. Besides, he was just stemming pretty much constantly. And so we worked with him for two weeks. By the end of the two weeks, we'll have on like our social media and stuff, we'll have a couple of videos coming out of him. But the by the end of the two weeks, his stemming was dramatically reduced to the point where he was, you know, doing it on occasion. He was starting to make eye contact. He was starting to try to verbalise words. He was also like, when mom would, you know, point to something with like, Hey, look at this, he would actually look at it, and he was becoming aware of his surroundings like that there was something else going on around him besides, you know, stemming. And so those are really cool changes within just a couple of weeks that and also, secondarily, behaviours were a lot calmer. He was just easier to work with. I mean, I remember the first day when I tried to do the exam, it was like, it was like chasing it. I mean, I literally chased him around the room constantly trying to get my exam done. And by the end of it, he was able to follow directions that we had that the staff had him do he was able to do the different activities which was a really large transformation, but We've primarily just worked on his primitive reflexes, getting his sensory systems to start activating or getting some sensory perception. And we use lasers and everything like that to help with blood flow. But yeah, really fun case there.

Lucia Silver:

Wow. And please describe to me what his parents must have said how they felt how they reacted when they saw their child.

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, the I mean, I did a video like a testimonial type of thing, which will be cool. But you know, they were just ecstatic because I mean, no one's taken the time to actual in this is the sad truth is, no one's made the child do anything no one made has made the child go to OT, they go to PT all the time, but nothing gets done. We're, we had three staff members with them the whole time, putting them through movements, reinforcing those movements, using like, all this different technology all at the same time, in an intense manner. And that's what it takes to make a change is consistency and intensity, to get that neuroplasticity to start to happen. And so the that was number one, they were ecstatic just to see someone actually doing something and getting something done with them. But then to see the changes, you know, they drove two and a half hours each way every single day. And, you know, they they couldn't wait to come back because of the change that they saw within a very short period of time. So they're ecstatic.

Lucia Silver:

Well, well, well, well, how how incredible how incredible. I can't even imagine. Well, I can't because I've seen it yourself. But with a child with such severe, severe stems and so cut off from the world to see just the beginning of a reengagement, you know that that is that in itself, if they, if they saw nothing else that would be that would be incredible. And just to emphasise, dosh this this was with without drugs. This was without medication.

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yep, yeah. And you know, and you talked about like that beginning of engagement, like now you can start to look at well, now that he can start to engage. Now, what else can you do? Can you start doing these other therapies more appropriately? Can you start doing speech therapy more appropriately? Because you can actually start looking at someone? And he's not stimming the whole time? Or can he actually start working on some of these other gross motor, fine motor, you know, other skills, because now he can actually take in directions and start to try to do them, you know? So there's a huge aspect of just those two weeks what that's going to mean long term of him being able to start to work on those things.

Lucia Silver:

Yes, I mean, you're putting foundational blocks in place so that you can then build on more and more so that he can now talk and he can now yes, so as we've talked about, consistently, you've got to get the building blocks in, in place first, and this is, you know, for any parents listening with with a child suffering from autism, then this is this is potentially very exciting. News. And Josh, is this something that those parents can also continue to do at home that they don't have to wholly rely on on clinic for?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yep, yeah, they have an eight week at home plan that I'm going to have them continue to reinforce the stuff that we've done in the office. And then I'll have him come back, and I'll reassess them and see where he's at and then decide on care from there.

Lucia Silver:

Wonderful, wonderful. So this episode is Dr. Josh is gonna is going to help us get a little bit more kind of executional you know, what a what an exercise look like? What a programmes look like, what shape are we going to build this support upon, and perhaps just to to whine back and to relate some of the questions that I'm dealing with, with some of the parents that I'm speaking to? So first of all, you know, what are some of the questions you most commonly get asked by parents before they start on a rehabilitation or development programme?

Dr Josh Madsen:

A lot of times is why didn't they develop in the first place? Why didn't primitive reflexes developed in the first place? How much time is it going to take? What else do I need to do? You know, like, that's where I'm talking about nutrition based stuff. Those are probably the big ones that those three questions I hear the most. What about you? What have you been hearing?

Lucia Silver:

I am, yes, I get why didn't it happen? Did I do something wrong? How come it's so bad now what's changed? You know, all the stuff that we've covered in our previous podcast series, you know, it's it's no, it's no one's fault. It's, but I think some parents maybe think that they need to have more or no more and that it's going to be very complicated what they need to do and that's why today I really want to show that you know, I'm not a scientist. I've been studying neuroscience avidly since I began this and I've done some training in it, but I actually don't even know that that would have been necessary to execute what I have with with with Quinn. And I want parents to really understand from you and I that they can implement this very simply, it's almost like a personal training programme or an exercise programme, where you look at you do look at your diet, and if there are any rampant allergies or issues in that area, of course, those need to be looked at as well. But plain and simply, it's a movement based course, isn't it? Josh? It's, yeah,

Dr Josh Madsen:

yeah, I mean, you can, you can make it as complex as you want, you can run all these complex labs and do all this complex stuff. But foundation is still the foundation is you have to rehab it, you have to put the work in to rehab it just like if you want to get a six pack, it doesn't happen by sitting there and doing nothing. It's you have to work those muscles in you have to activate those muscles in you have to change your diet to get rid of body fat. And you know, it's the same principles just as anything else in a movement based or an exercise based programme. It's, it's all the same foundational principles. It's just getting started and doing it.

Lucia Silver:

Yeah. And consistency, I think is one of gonna have to be one of our massive buzz words. It's consistency. It's not about doing things for hours on end and making it really hard. It's about consistent intervention and implementation, isn't it?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yep. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, going to the gym once and expect to be in shape. It takes months of doing activities, and you can't go out for a run on your first run and do two to three hours because you'll you'll be trashed for the next three weeks. You have to start slow, and you have to build into it. And just like in same with a kid like these movements, they may seem easy for a lot of people but they can be overstimulating for a kid that has a really underdeveloped system. So you have to sort of slower and build into it.

Lucia Silver:

Yes, that's a good point. So some some case studies, can we can we talk about a few specific ones, Josh in in, in clinic just to because we're going to have, we're going to have some parents listening who have got maybe a nonverbal toddler, then we're going to have another with a child that's maybe stuttering or stammering we might have a teenager with intent, attention and impulse control issues. So how about we just could we go through lizards, starting with a toddler, I mean, you've just mentioned one actually a nonverbal toddler. Yep.

Dr Josh Madsen:

So I'll try to keep it like relevant to like the last few weeks of practice. So I had a kid that I've actually worked with for the last year, maybe eight or nine months, but in, he's on maintenance now. And you'll just see him for adjustments like that now. But the heat when he came to he had a speech apraxia he wasn't really speaking much at all. And I see a lot of kids with speech apraxia, which is where they can't get the words out pretty much. And he was in special education classes, stuff like that, you know, special speech classes. And now this year, he has gone back to school, they've done all their assessments for school, he's in the normal classroom, he doesn't need speech therapy anymore. Oh, it started with getting rid of his primitive reflexes, which were huge. I mean, he had an asymmetrical tonic neck reflex, he had a rooting reflex, which is commonly seen in kids have speech delays, then we use something called a direct current, which I use a lot for kids who have speech delays, because there's quite a bit of research on helping to increase verbalization with that device. And, and we use lasers and so like that, too, but the main focus was getting rid of his primitive reflexes, because your primitive reflexes need to be gone for imbalanced that it can be developed for our motor centres to develop. Well, speech is primarily a motor base skill. So if our motor centres aren't developed, you can't develop speech appropriately. And they're the brain that actually gets speech out is called your Broca's speech area. So if your motor centres aren't developed, that Broca's Area can't efficiently mature and develop, and therefore you'll see speech delays or speech apraxia type of issues, is at least what I find consistently is as we get rid of those reflexes, and we start getting some blood flow to those areas of the brain, kids, speech improves dramatically within a short period of time.

Lucia Silver:

Wow. So just by starting again, with the primitive reflexes, that sort of talking or babbling if they haven't been speaking at all, does that suddenly accelerate? And I'm thinking of a little kid, Dr. Josh, that's at school with my son. He's a few years below and he still isn't speaking, I think he's about five. He's also got a very awkward walk, which obviously ties into what you and I know is the motor development that you've just been talking about. But for for a little child like that. So we check is rooting reflex it's there. We addressed that. What happens with that child's catch up because they haven't been speaking? They've been listening, of course, they've been learning language, can they? I mean, it takes a little while to catch up, but does it does it suddenly happen to them? I suddenly start talking or what, what? What progress? Do you see what speed?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, usually they'll go from like, you know, no words or maybe a couple of words, when it's a true speech apraxia is what we're talking about not an autistic disorder here is they usually go from a couple of words to start to speaking, multiple words, sentences within about six to eight weeks. And then from there, it just takes off and they start work many words, sentences and using it a lot more context. But it usually happens pretty quickly. Because their their understanding of speech is their their ability to get it to the front of their brain is there, but just the ability to get it out is not there because their motor centres aren't developed in that scenario. And when you get their motor centred, more developed, they can actually start moving their mouth appropriately articulating appropriately, making sounds more appropriately. And then it improves dramatically. And with this, like with this, especially speech, apraxia, I can tell you with confidence, I've maybe only had like, maybe one kid that has not dramatically improved their speech in a matter of six to eight weeks. So it's really consistent. And that's not the same with every other disorder. But speech apraxia is, is one of the more common things that I see. And I mean, I've seen hundreds of kids with this issue, and there's very, very few that don't improve really quickly.

Lucia Silver:

That's so exciting. So, so exciting. And stuttering and stammering is that in a similar area.

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, so that comes from your cerebellum, your lateral cerebellum, that's what it coordinates your speech centres. In my, my actually my own son he had he fell really hard. This had been a few weeks ago now and he I think he got a concussion. And he started stuttering really bad like and he had never started before that and like you know, like trying to say what it was like well what will it would go on and on and so even like an injury can do it right and so what we did is we we modified his diet to get inflammation now we put on supplements to get inflammation now we lasered him to get inflammation down within a few days it was pretty much back to normal. Now if he gets really tired like even a week or two out year when he gets really tired or he has too many carbs you'll kind of hear it start to come back a little bit but the So thinking of it as there can be a developmental reason or it could be from you know a head trauma to is another common reason so always keeping those things in mind.

Lucia Silver:

Yeah, boy do I want to make sure my kid falls over somewhere close to you. It's really quite quite astounding how quickly with the right intervention. And how about teenagers? Dr. Josh this is this is a biggie it's a biggie from and we'll come on to it in a little bit with with how on earth do I get my teenager to even do these exercises but talk to us first about some results you might have had with with these God Doran teenagers the tension and the tempers and the you know, everything everything we know everything we know what do you do what's happened? Yep.

Dr Josh Madsen:

So I had a Kid Comfort intensive from Wisconsin it would have been probably three or four weeks ago now. It was before school started because she mom I remember mom was really worried about schools last year, he was constantly getting in trouble. He was Principal's office a lot. He was disrupting class all the time being sent home for disrupting, you know, at home, he was defiant that type of thing didn't you know, didn't want to go to school, all those types of things. We worked with him for a week and mom messaged us after the first week of school and was like, I don't know what's going on. He's, you know, he's able to get out of the door on time. We haven't had any issues at school yet. But that was just by working on primitive reflexes for a week. And then also I had him do. We did a food sensitivity test to make sure he wasn't eating foods he was sensitive to we did a urinary organic acids test, which we can talk a lot more about those but that helps us figure out how his energy production is. So we put them on some some supplementation or nutrients for that. And then we modified his diet a bit to get them on a lower carbohydrate diet and a higher fat diets was blood sugar was more stable, and that what that does, it just helps with inflammation. So the big aspect was the movement based aspect but also an inflammatory aspect as well as playing into it. So we address those things and life's a lot easier.

Lucia Silver:

So by addressing some of the evidence, dietary issues, this teenage teenager you could say was was was was more amenable to moving on in the programme with you if you like I mean part of it is that the readiness is all how do we get any given person, you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink kind of thing. So it's about putting someone in the right space. Also, you don't want them stressed and oppositional when you're trying to work with them either, because that doesn't, that's not conducive to healing or rehabilitation either. I'm just wondering, it helps, of course, that you are not the parents that sometimes a teenager will respond differently, because it's you it's not mum, and Rome's the worst person on the planet for some teenagers. So I just, that's something we'll come on to. But I mean, you, you you saw, and were able to get this teenager to settle down and be receptive. And will you would the next thing then be, as we do with everyone on our, on our programmes, and on a rehabilitation, back to primitive reflexes, again, start at the beginning with a teenager and see what's going on?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, yep. And a lot of people think, Oh, my kid just doesn't want to do it, or he is, you know, defiant or whatever. But put, let's put it this way, let's say I told you that you need to go out and run two or three miles. And if you haven't done it in forever, first and foremost, secondly, you go me and I am so tired, there's no way I can run three miles, I'm, you know, 15 pounds overweight, I don't have any energy, my joints ache all the time, you're gonna say you're crazy, no way. And, but that teenager, it might be the same thing. Like maybe his, his body and brain is so inflamed, that he's uncomfortable and on body all the time, maybe he doesn't have any energy, maybe he's eating foods that are constantly creating inflammation, and these systems can't develop efficiently. And maybe a lot of that Defiance is there's a true underlying reason for why he doesn't want to do and he may not be able to communicate that to you. Because just like any kid, they typically can't communicate what's going on efficiently. And maybe they've been that way for so long. They don't know something is going on. So a lot of times, like whether it's behavioural issues, or that type of stuff, usually there's an underlying reason for it, or maybe their guts dysregulated and their neurotransmitters are all off. And they they feel just almost in a way depressed because of that, or, you know, there's typically a reason is what I'm trying to say.

Lucia Silver:

Yes, and, you know, I look at, again, teenagers and young teenagers still packing in the sugar, you know, they're on these prime drinks and so on, you think my God, they're not even regulated that their blood sugar levels all over the place, they're popping all over the place from that. So, you know, you got to start with, with getting some sort of accessibility to them to get them calm, calm. Enough, but I think it's the you've got to work hand in hand with the parents, you've got to work hand in hand with diet and and then changes will come about, I also think about, you know, the parents were asked, you know, what is the programme look like? What sort of exercises how long, you know, am I talking about hours am I talking about, and just from a personal point of view, and then judge, please, from your point of view, answer this too. But with Quinn, it is a lot, but it's not a lot. It's a strange thing. It's, if you've got a difficult child and getting them to do five minutes of anything could be feel insurmountable. But what I can encourage you to do is that with with Quinn, we we do our best, as you will have heard from him. In our very first podcast, we would do 10 minutes, three times a day. And we continue to do that now. And there are many times where he just doesn't feel like doing it. Of course, he's human, he wakes up feeling rubbish, he's had a bad night's sleep. And the exercises, particularly for his core can be quite strenuous. And he just doesn't feel like doing it. You know, that's reasonable. So you give and take, but the point is to be consistent. And the exciting part is, Quinn now relates his exercises to why he is playing so well at football, and why he's making friends and why he's engaging and why he feels lighter and while why he is able to regulate his emotions better. So that in itself will encourage him like Josh was saying earlier on if you want the six pack, boy does it look good. When you're looking in the mirror that encourages you to keep if that's what you're after a great six pack, you keep going because it's looking good. And the fat is sloughing off if that's really what's important to you, or what's been important to Quinn is friends and football and as he said so poignantly engaging with the people that I love. I mean, can you imagine waking up from a place of isolation and feeling cut off to suddenly opening your eyes and feeling in your body and engaging with the people you love around you? What more encouragement would you want to keep going?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, no, that's awesome. Um, In my programmes, like at home print programmes are pretty similar to be honest like, and work on exercise three times a day, they usually take anywhere from five to 10 minutes. Some people that are, you know, they really want to attack and I might give them a little bit more in depth stuff to do. And you know, maybe it ends up being one session that's 20 to 30 minutes long instead.

Lucia Silver:

Right? Right. So I mean, in essence, what we're saying is, you're not talking about hours every day at all this is manageable, plan, organise your day, make those times. I would also recommend, you know, don't don't jump it on your kid or on your teenager planet, discuss it, agree it make it consensual? When would you like to do them? What's good for you? Do you want to do them before or after breakfast? Do you want to do them as soon as you get back from school? Or do you want to do them like a little bit later? Do you want to maybe take a break at school and do a set by yourself? You know, so there are ways that you can really do it as a team, rather than it feeling? Particularly for teenager like it's another thing that's been imposed on me by my, by my parents, you know? So, Josh, you know, parents are saying to me, like, I already feel I can't get any compliance with my, my older kids, just getting them to get out of bed, get off their screens, come down to dinner, you know, that they really are an entirely different animal. And I can already visualise parents heads in their hand saying, really, you know, how? So just to recap on what we're saying? Or could you recap for us, you know, what, what is going to be the best first steps if you've got a extremely difficult teenager at home, and you know that there are some issues around the symptomatology. We've talked about a tension, emotional regulation, even some issues in school with reading and so forth? What do you think's the best first step to support these parents? Who are who are just unsure how to go about this?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah. First and foremost, be changing the mindset of the parent from, well, I can't do that. Or, you know, too, how can I do that? Which is going to open up their mind to like, maybe there's, there's some possibilities how I can figure this out? What is my child like to do that maybe I can utilise as a reward for him for when he does these exercises, or, you know, whatever it may be. So first and foremost, just changing the parents mindset of a trying to be creative with it, right? But then there's figuring out, I'm gonna think of the right words here. Is there any underlying reasons for why they maybe don't want to do it, it could just be a truly behavioural issue. But typically, again, I find that behavioural issues have a lot to do with underlying physiology of, maybe they don't have any energy, maybe their diet needs changed. So they can, you know, actually do the exercise appropriately, and they have energy to do it. But I think the most important thing, especially with a teenager is educating them of why, you know, like, for example, and I know, Quinn's younger, but if you were to say to Quint, hey, these exercises are gonna make you way better at soccer, and help you there. And then he started seeing that happen after a few weeks of him getting more, you know, more developed and able to play soccer better, that's going to reinforce that, I usually try to link it to something that they really want to do that they you know, they really want to improve in and having a serious conversation about like, what do you want to do? What do you want to be good at? How do you you know, and you can link any movement based thing? Yes, maybe their behaviours are a problem, but they have a movement based issue as well. So you can link it back to I want to be better at baseball. Yeah, exactly. You can link it to something like that. Like, sometimes when kids come into clinic, I don't even talk about the reading issue. I just talked about, Hey, how can we make you better at this sport or that sport, and then they think the only reason that there there is for sports performance, not for the reading at all. And then on the side note, the reading improves as a sports important in sports performance improves, because same systems need to develop for both to happen.

Lucia Silver:

That's so interesting. I mean, I would put that down to framing and mindset, right? If you can, if you it's how you frame it. A great analogy as a girlfriend of mine, and it was having a lot of issues with her with her husband, and we decided that we were going to call it executive life coaching. But it was it was going to see a shrink, essentially, because he had a lot of a lot of issues, but we couldn't call it seeing a therapist. We couldn't because that was a huge trigger for him. But we called it you know, an executive life coach. So he was telling everybody that he was going to see this person because it was you know, he's he's senior in business and this was just going to refine his awesome business executive skills. But it didn't matter. It didn't matter because ultimately it got him there. He's doing brilliantly Just the support that he needs, but that would that was motivating for him. So as you say, think about what it is that would be motivating. Quinn actually said to me the other day and and Mommy, you know, I said, What do you think are some of the questions that parents would have or kids would have about this programme going? And, and he said, Yeah, he said to me, mommy, I don't know how you're gonna get some of the kids I know to do these because they just shout at their parents all the time. So I think you need to work out some way of rewarding them, which is what you've just said. So positive reinforcement and rewarding, you know, maybe it's not screens, obviously, because we're working hard to get them off screens for 1000 reasons. But yes, it might be that if they managed to do this for the first month, and they get to go see a game that they've been dying to see, or they they get to go out with their their friends, or go out for a great dinner or something. It doesn't always have to be financially costly, but it could be more freedom, you know, so look for look for what most important is motivating for your, for your kids. And I think a lot of the material Dr. Josh, that you and I will be able to share will show before and after. And I think if you can show teenagers successfully living their lives, so maybe doing some of the exercises, and then being fantastic at football, being fantastic at dancing and singing and all these cool things that teenagers want to, you know, with friends and engaging and leading great lives. It's about also having champions and ambassadors and people who they look up to doing this to living healthily getting off their screens playing sport, moving, getting strong, being healthy, not drinking, rubbish, sodas, and so forth. So it's, there's, there's lots of ways that we that we could do this, but

Dr Josh Madsen:

I just have a perfect example of this, that I that I think, will help a lot of parents out there. So I saw this teenager, this is actually a long time ago. It's probably like three years ago, and this kid was he was be considered probably Asperger's ish. The or he did have a diagnosis of that at that time, but we don't really use it anymore. But anyways, he was addicted to video games. He played like eight hours of video games a day, he only had friends online, he, you know, you didn't have trash bags. He's just sitting there all day. And I had them take video games completely away like it. I mean, it was, at that point, it was devastating for him because it was, Well, how am I gonna play with my friends, blah, blah, blah. But what ends up happening, it's kind of crazy is they start learning new things that they start making, you know, better, healthier decisions, and they start making new friends in those better, healthier things. So now, he is the best guitar player, like, it's insane. He puts them up on Instagram, and I love watching them because he'll listen to a song. And and he'll he has perfect pitch. So he will play he'll play the song right after it. And it is amazing, truly amazing in, but he never would have learned that skill or never even been introduced that skill if if his parents wouldn't have been willing to say, hey, we're gonna reinforce this, we're not going to just, you know, let let him do whatever be more or less be his friend, we're going to be as parents and we're going to, we're going to enforce these things. And they didn't have to do it for that long. They enforced those things for two, three weeks. And by then it became habit. And then that new habit set in new new things that he started to learn and in sort of getting incorporated and other things. And then you know, he was in band and all these other great things where he was interacting with other people in that through a video game.

Lucia Silver:

Oh, that is such a great example. Such a great example. And it's self fulfilling. Yeah, that kid now is loving that. And I the screen is so much less interesting than being a call rocket. Yeah, he's playing in a band. And it could be better. It's like it's an as you say, it was such a roadblock to discovering all of that potential talent that's aside from the active damage that over time we will share that screens do actually do to the brain. It's forget about the active damage. That's, that's just a roadblock to ah, I mean, what a what a fantastic example. So yes, I mean, that's hard. I mean, I have a mother friend at school who is terrified to take the screen away from her child was I've been saying that's the first thing we need to do. And she's like, I'm a single mom, I have no I have no other babysitting. I have no other support. I have nothing and he will scream at the house off. And it's a scary prospect. But it may well be you know, your kid can only scream for so long. Yeah. And then that that is going to stop and you are going to discover a treasure trove of wonders in your child if you can just create that space for it to happen.

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, and when you take those things away, like there's so many other things there and when they get bored, they'll go new things to do. And it might be going outside and playing, it might be drawing or art, it might be something that you would never even think that they would enjoy doing. And they'll start doing it a lot. And they'll get really good at it, or they'll, you know, enjoy the outdoors, which is amazing for you, and amazing for your brain. But they'll pick something else that is much more beneficial. takes about two to three weeks in their brain will adapt and change. It always does.

Lucia Silver:

Well, that's a very interesting headline in itself. Dr. Josh, thank you, you know, two to three weeks for it to change. I didn't actually have that information to hand. So can you get through two to three weeks of hell parents because at the end of that, you will see a difference if you can, here's your challenge three weeks of hell can you do it? Yeah, so

Dr Josh Madsen:

a lot of issues based because they're addicted. I mean, like, truly, they're addicted to the dopamine hits from video games, they're addicted to the dopamine hits from you know, at what x, whatever activity, but once that gets taken out, they're gonna go through a withdrawal period, just like any addict with any drug, they're gonna go through withdrawal for a couple of weeks. But then after it, they're fine,

Lucia Silver:

then they're fine, um, that there's the addicted to the algorithm, as I as I put it, you've got the dopamine, which is what happens chemically. And then you've got this algorithmic thing where you keep being fed relevant information, because you know, clever little devices out there read exactly what it is you you're interested in, and it keeps giving it to you. And so you actually never have internally what I would call internally motivated creativity, which is what happens in a in a board moment, what happens when you have to I'm I'm a designer and creative by by, by trade originally, and the greatest moments happened to me from Silence and tranquillity from that moment where there is not so much going on, I can give birth can give rise to something new. But if there is constant constant input stimulation, I'm picking up my phone, I'm looking at this and there's no space. So that is a really important part of changing the neural pathways as well to create a different form of stimulation, right?

Unknown:

Yep. For sure.

Lucia Silver:

So are there any immediate game changes or quick wins for any kid starting on the longer term programme? You know, whilst we're working on the programme to help with the really difficult challenges, especially in the older and teenage kids, we've talked about, if a child is having an emotional outburst, or high stress moment, or anxiety, or panic attack or refusal to go to school, is there any anything intervention, really, I mean, I'm going to share with you Josh, and I don't know how correct this is, but I do it with Quinn, I will get him to get down on the floor, it's quite hard to do when he's not in a great space. But if I get him to breathe deeply through his nose, and I get him down on the floor, and he does snow angels, which we will explain in due course, but it's a very simple movement on his back on the floor, that will often calm him down. Can any can any of what we're doing be used into eventually.

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, the that I mean, that's great, like your breath is one of the fastest ways to calm down your central nervous system. So like breathing, slow, deep, trying to get to where maybe you're only doing six to seven breaths a minute, because like when you're in one of those states, you're going to be breathing like 14 to 20 times a minute. And the fast way to calm down your nervous system is to calm down your breathing rate. So that's number one. But then number two, like you can do a lot of stuff like vagal nerve activation, like gargling water, having them sing having them, you know vibrating their abdomen, in their chest and around their neck. That all activates that vagal system, which helps calm down stress. And but I would say from like it just said, a big picture viewpoint is number one, making sure that their blood sugar stable, they're not eating foods that are spiking their blood sugar, because that can put them when their blood sugar is too high, it can put them in in. In a state of like a fight or flight or stress when it gets too low, it can do the same thing. So when you have these big fluctuations, that can create a lot of issues because it creates inflammation. And secondly, make sure they're sleeping and making sure that they're not on electronics within a couple hours of going to bed and making sure that they're you know, the the lights in the house are lower at night. So they're going to bed at a good time and their circadian rhythm can function appropriately and they can actually get good deep restful sleep because you don't get restful sleep, your brain can't heal, nothing can function well. It's one of the biggest risk factors for attentional issues. What are the biggest risk factors for weight gain? It's one of the you know, not sleeping well as a big issue. So making sure that those two things are in place are really helpful for all aspects of development, especially emotional outbursts, stress, anxiety, those types of things.

Lucia Silver:

Right, so ban those means before bedtime, no matter how much kicking and screaming goes on, they're not allowed to be on screens in that lead up to bedtime. It's not helpful it really

Dr Josh Madsen:

helpful read books, even like some just simple sleep hygiene aspects of like putting red light bulbs in there, their lights that are in their bedroom. So like the first, the hour or 30 minutes before they go to bed, they're just getting red light, they're not getting light from normal light bulbs, which put off blue light, which is which gives you replicates like the sun being out more or less. So like a red light will get them even more into asleep, full state and then you can still read and stuff like that with a red light. So those are just some quick tips that can help.

Lucia Silver:

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna give you some quick fire some quickfire questions that have come from parents as well, which is as follows. So what about anxiety and depression? Are these not chemical imbalances? Dr. Josh, not neurological delays?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Can be number one, you need to think of? What is anxiety? What is Depression? You know, like, is it actually anxiety? Those are really subjective things like, Oh, I'm anxious? Well, is it is Is it true anxiety where it could be a chemical imbalance? Or, you know, is it a fight or flight response? Are they anxious in busy places, when their vestibular system is being challenged? Do they still have a startle reflex? It shouldn't be that it's making them anxious? In same with depression, are they truly depressed? Or do they have a mitochondrial deficiency and they don't have enough energy, so they're actually just more or less fatigued all the time? So like, what is the true underlying issue, and if it is a true like neurotransmitter chemical issue there, what's going on their gut, you know, like, 80% of the neurotransmitters for our body in our brain are produced in our gut. So if we have, you know, if we have a deficiency in serotonin, and therefore that's going to cause us to be depressed, well, what's going on in your gut, that you're not actually breaking down those proteins, utilising those and utilising those substrates to make serotonin. So there's usually underlying reasons and there can also be developmental and neurological imbalances from one cortex, the next that can play into this too. So there's a developmental aspect, but there's there is also a looking at a whole system's approach that can play into it. So it's figuring out what's the underlying things and there might be multiple, but addressing those underlying foundational issues is more important than just you know, taking a medication or something like that to try to get the those neurotransmitters or biochemical pathways functioning more efficiently.

Lucia Silver:

Right. So it comes back again to my thoughts. Yes, I that makes sense. I mean, essentially, all all roads lead to let's get to the root cause, rather than you know, slapping on to the symptomatology, which is anxiety and depression. Let's ask why. And let's go back to blood sugar's let's go back to diet. Let's go back to primitive reflexes, all of which, I'd like to say that when we begin with our suggested assessment, that assessment will hopefully catch all so that when we start on a programme of addressing the primitive reflexes, we we will be able to check some of these large areas as well. They kind of they have to go hand in hand at their doctor Josh.

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, and even like the the simple stuff like a CBC, like and checking your blood sugar, those should be things that are pretty much standard at your paediatric visit, like those are things that they're next to nothing cost wise to run.

Lucia Silver:

What's the CBC Delta judge, just for those of us who don't know a CBC

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yep, a complete blood count, just to make sure that your child's not anaemic? Well, it tells you a lot of stuff about how the immune system functioning, if there's infections, that type of stuff, but it can also give you a good indication if there's an anaemia issue or lack lack of ability for your red blood cells to carry oxygen efficiently. So those simple basic blood panels, they can tell you a massive amount about just these, these basic things that are needed for our brain or body to develop and function well.

Lucia Silver:

So I think it would be fair to say that before starting on any of the programmes that will be guiding you to there would be a checklist, once your assessment is done, if there are areas that are being highlighted, like emotional dysregulation, lack of sleep, anxiety, depression, it may well be that that we would encourage you to go and have these tests and that way we have the full we're fully furnished with all of the information before embarking on the programme just to make sure that we have the maximum potential to get this right to get this right and to tailor that to tailor the programme accordingly. So children with different symptoms, in some cases will need to be doing some differently tailored exercises and movements Won't they just you could say that the child who's nonverbal, and maybe we'd be working on the rooting reflex could be very different from a child. Like when, for example, who is dealing with a tic? Or who is dealing with another child who's dealing with reading issues. So there will be some areas that will have tailored exercises, but all children would need to assess their primitive reflexes first, and all children would need to be building on their foundational issues, as we've discussed, but then it would be refined a little bit later in the programme. Is that a fair way to surmise some of the differences?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like a kid that has, you know, attention issues, and ADHD might have more reflexes, then someone that just simply has handwriting issues. You know, so like, the more delayed or underdeveloped the child is, typically the more reflexes are present, the less delayed a child is that usually the less reflexes they have, and maybe the more specific reflexes they have. So yes, every plan is kind of different. But when you learn to assess them, you know, well, my kid has these three reflexes, this one reflex, or these seven reflexes, and then you can tailor your plan based off of what reflexes are actually present.

Lucia Silver:

Yeah, I mean, it's so exciting. I just cannot wait to start building these programmes and seeing exactly how, how we can take the wonderful work that you do in clinic and bring it to home. So one of the questions again, is can you give me an idea of what the steps or a course or a journey like mine and Quinn's might look like. And Josh and I are just Dr. Josh and I are developing some of the principles of how to take the best of what he's doing in clinic, to parents at home. And we started with an idea of seven steps of as sort of radical drug free, transformative healing programme. And those steps would look something like this, your art would be realisation and that's the education that we need. You don't need to go get a neuroscience degree, as we've discussed, but the scientific facts that you know, will make sense of your child and their symptoms and challenge and it's about understanding the root causes that we have begun to explore in this podcast series. Number two, a assessment. And that's a preliminary assessment of your child to see where the challenges lie in order to tailor the programme accordingly. D. Diet and Health Doctor Josh's talk today about how quite often a child with apparent ADHD could be anaemic, or blood sugar levels could be causing all sorts of spikes in behaviour, problems with sleeping, and so forth. Health, around sleep, no screens before bed, those sorts of things. So that's the D. I is for inspiration. And goodness knows we all need that community. Case studies, shared success stories, shared triumphs, our before and after stories, those would all be a part of really keeping everybody's mindset positive and committed, which is the C commitment, consistency. And a big part of what I really want to bring to these programmes is self care. Dr. Josh is aware as am I that it takes two to tango with this one. And by this I mean parents as one and kids as the other. And if you're not taking care of yourself, you may be a single mom like me. And it can be hard, but you have to make sure that you are supported. And if you are supported, and you take care of yourself, and you can keep going and that then feeds into the commitment and consistency that's necessary for the programme. And once all of those are in place, then you're ready for action. Give me some movement. This is the nitty gritty of the exercise plan itself, which would be organised into cohorts according to symptomatology, and possibly age, as well. And finally, L That's love and launch, lift off. Starting the programme, the protocol for healing and realising your child's potential supported by this loving community and fueled by the love for your child. I very specifically talk about this programme being for devoted parents and I really mean that and I know that you all want the best for your children. So So yeah, it helps to have an acronym so there it is radical, the radical drug free, transformative healing programme for your child. That's what that's what we're working towards. And some questions that may stem from this Dr. Josh, what what it's an unknown in question, and I know it's not a straightforward question to answer, but it is one that I think most parents will ask instinctively, how long might we expect to be doing these exercises before seeing results,

Dr Josh Madsen:

I will try to tell parents to look at the neurological findings and work on those before you expect symptomatic improvement. So like, for example, primitive reflexes, like let's say we're going to talk about the asymmetrical tonic neck reflex, right? Like that should go away, right around six to eight months of life. And but then maybe the kid is having impulse control issues, behavioural regulation issues will let you know, like my two and a half year old, he's just currently learning how to control his emotions in a very minimal way. He's learning how to listen how to, you know, two and a half, three. So like, a lot of those systems that should start developing it two and a half or three maybe can't develop because of there's reflexes in the way that should develop an eight, nine months. So if we're looking at a child from a developmental perspective is I want to see that their reflexes are getting better. Within you know, four to six weeks, I want to see that the reflexes are gone within a few months, I want to see their balance and are starting to develop after that their eye tracking centre started develop after that. So when we look at the true neurological signs and symptoms, that's what I want to see improving, as those improve in their brain has a little bit of time to catch up and reorganise itself. That's when you start seeing symptomatology improve. I can't tell you like how many times I saw a kid that had attention issues that we work with for three months, all the reflexes look, good vestibular system look, good eyes look good. But parents like yeah, and nothing's really changed in their, their attention stuff. But then I see him back three or six months later for reassessment and they go, it's amazing, they can focus now their school is going so good, you know, like, all those things have improved, but their brain needed time to catch up. So there's an aspect of we have to work on getting these things developed before we'll ever see symptomatic change, and sometimes those symptomatic changes come right along with these with as the system's mature, but sometimes it does take a little bit of time for that brain to catch up and into reorganise and heal.

Lucia Silver:

So that's, that's fair. And and along the way, not to frighten anybody. There are some challenges that you can encounter to write. I remember, at one point, being told that, you know, we're going back now and we're re we're re hardwiring, we're re hardwearing Quinn's brain, he might wet the bed. I was like, What? No, it's not, he's not a bed wetter. And another one was, did Quinn go through the terrible twos? And I was like, no, no, he was a great baby. Super easy. And I remember the neuroscientists going, Oh, dear. So what do you mean? You kind of that was that was a that's a milestone. There's I want you mean, that's amazing. You're supposed to have the terrible twos, you know, those kids in supermarket floors that embarrassed their parents, because they're kicking and screaming? That's a kind of, you know, it's okay, at a certain point in time that said, that's a thing. And we need to see that thing. So you may well, now that we're going back and going through it all again, and Quinn's playing catch up, you may have terrible twos in a nine year olds body and eyes like Oh, lordy, Lord. So you know that that's, can you talk a little bit on that, Josh, that you can have some sort of some highlights along the way?

Dr Josh Madsen:

Yeah, the don't quote me on the exact number, because I can't remember exactly how many off top my head. But I think from the age of like zero to 10, there's like 12, or 14 natural neurological regressions. Like terrible twos is considered a neurological regression, where basically what's happening is you have all these neurons inside of your brain that are making all these connections, then you have neurons that aren't really being utilised efficiently, or synapses that aren't being used efficiently. So our brain does some called pruning, where we go and we get rid of those those connections. During that, you'll typically see regressions, because it is an inflammatory process your immune systems involved, you'll get a little bit of a regression, but the cool thing is after it, my wife always says, which is really cool as after it, you see these big explosions in function. So like my wife calls it like, you know, pulling back the arrow before you release the, the, before you release it, right? And it's true, like you've seen the regression, but then you see these big changes in function after it which is really cool. And that's how you know, it's how I know in my office, it's a regression is if I rechecked the reflexes and they're continuing to improve, I rechecked their balance, it's continuing to improve, I recheck their eyes, it's continuing to improve. Therefore, I know it's a regression versus if I look at them, and all their reflexes are back and their eyes look horrible and like what happened, you know, then that's a different story. That's, you know, they maybe ate something they should have shouldn't have. Maybe they hit their head on something, you know, maybe they didn't sleep at all for like two days for some random reason or they get sick, like those things can throw it off a little bit. But, but typically it's just a regression and it's normal.

Lucia Silver:

And I can certainly concur with that, that sometimes the the, what I would call that honeymoon period after you've had this little kind of blip, this incredible honeymoon period, sometimes you don't notice it when it's going on. I remember the end of a week thinking, Oh, my word I've just walked to and from school with Quinn, in totally engaged conversation. That hasn't happened that hadn't happened before. He'd be either stemming, or he'd be district, you know, he'd be distracted or off somewhere. And I was I was. And that happened just shortly after a very oppositional very emotionally challenging period with him where I honestly thought we were going backwards. And I was like, I don't know what's happening here. I'm not sure this is working. Oh, my goodness. And it only happened for about a week. But because I'd never had a child that was oppositional and defiant and difficult. He's always been a lovely, easy natured child, I suddenly had this kickback, it frightened the life out of me. But at the end of that week, came this wonderful engagement and conversation. So I can absolutely testify firsthand to experiencing that up and down moment. So I think it's a good moment to sign off, we've explained a little bit today, I hope and giving you some idea of of how implementable all of this is and how there are steps to follow the support is here, the community is here. And Dr. Josh has seen so many extraordinary transformations, in clinic and out of clinic, I hope that a lot of the information is now falling into place for you. Maybe we can just leave with some words of encouragement, Dr. Josh from from you, first of all, in your years of doing this as a departing word on this wonderful my Mighty Quinn introductory series, some words of final encouragement to our parents.

Dr Josh Madsen:

Um, it's not always easy, but it's always worth it. Like, that's what every parent tells me is like, you know, they, they had to do some sacrificing they had to do with everything, oh, you know, time at home with changing diet with, you know, whatever it may be, but what I always find out at the end is, number one, it's always worth it. Number two, the family in in whole is always healthier, and you know, maybe that's, you know, they're all working together towards a common goal, they're, maybe they're all changing their diet together to help this one child, but that makes everyone else healthier, you know, the parents feel better, that they're now getting starting to sleep because now this kid is so that struggling is starting to sleep. And so everything gets better as a family. And yes, it's hard, it's challenging, but it's always rewarding. In in, you get to see some really significant changes in your child, when you actually put in the work to make it happen. And I just encourage you to put in that work and and you know, really take it seriously and really attack it. Because if you do anything, you know, halfway you're not gonna get nearly where you should be. But if you jump in, you know, you fully jump in and you start learning and educating yourself and implementing, you're going to make really significant changes for that child long term.

Lucia Silver:

That is so very powerful. And as a final thank you to Josh for this incredible work you do with children and for supporting and partnering me along the way on our mission, our venture our endeavour to take this out to the world. I couldn't be prouder to be working alongside you. So my thanks to you again.

Dr Josh Madsen:

You're welcome, guys. Good. It's been a very big blessing for us as well.

Lucia Silver:

And as a final note to the parents. I was reflecting just as I was listening to Dr. Josh, what really, really is this all about? Can you remember, if you wind back in time to the moment you decided to have your first child you may have one child or you may be sitting listening right now willing and wishing to conceive, you may be pregnant, you may be looking at some very challenging teenager in front of you. But wherever you are, remember that moment of deciding that you are going to have a child and all the dreams and all the excitement and all of the wonder at this huge responsibility of bringing this life into the world and how you are going to be the best possible parent you could possibly be and what that entails and what that demands of you And this is it. This is this is it. Now, this is the most important thing that I believe we do in this life. We have our careers, goodness knows I have my my businesses, which I love. But there is quite clearly nothing more important than my child. And they are the future and they are your legacy. So, breathe into that. Remember that that is where the story begins and ends and you will find the energy you will find the time and you will find the commitment to do this for your children. And on that note, I'm going to sign off today and thank you so much for staying with me for listening to this. Onwards and upwards and lots of love. Bye bye for now.